Realignment Talk

[TexGator]

With the Mountain West Conference being poached of its top members (and likely more of them leaving soon to backfill the PAC12), it looks like we'll start the next round of realignment in college sports.
That said, if the Sun Belt or C-USA called, would you want O'Malley to take the call- knowing there would be a HUGE fundraising effort (probably $30M+) to upgrade/expand facilities, including probably needing to double the capacity for Provost Umphrey Stadium?
Obviously, moving to FBS wouldn't get SEC or Big 12 teams to play football games in Beaumont, but the paychecks for non-conference would be bigger; the football TV deal isn't as lucrative as you'd think (~$700K annually so the paycheck games would be the main driver of additional revenue).
That ballpark of $30M = ~$200/student annually for a decade to pay for those facility upgrades, less what's fundraised from alumni and corporate partners. I'm sure they have it in the endowment (among unrestricted funds) to front the money, but I'm leery both ways:
- Leery of making the move because of the previous moves not paying off
- Leery that P4 Football will split itself off creating a whole different paradigm in the next 5 years
- Leery of not being aggressive since backfilling the Pac-12 might be the last domino for a decade and, if the Cards want to play musical chairs, the music might suddenly stop w/o anywhere to sit.

[redbird2002]

Lamar should be on the phone every day trying to get back into the Sun Belt conference. We have already been left behind. Our so called sister schools have so much more national recognition and growth, while we are an afterthought in the TSU system 

Both of those schools were smaller than Lamar and didn’t even compete in DI sports for most of their history and yet they have passed us up  Just shameful  

No one in Beaumont has done anything bold since Captain Lucas and Patillo Higgins went to Spindletop. 

[NorthoftheBorder]

While I have long wanted LU to reach for the stars, I have sadly, after 45 years, come to the conclusion that LU does not have, and has not had, the type of visionary leadership that can develop and sell a plan that would elevate them to be a successful G5 athletic program.  It would take vision, leadership, inspiration, plus the execution ability to pull that off.  Without confidence in the plan and the leadership to execute the plan, the big money LU people are not going to invest to make it happen.  And at this stage of the game, I think we are out of runway with time to be able to get there even if we started now.  The P4 schools will close ranks here soon and we will get down to around 40-60 schools (UT & A&M being leaders here) that will continue to dominate and take even more of the revenue available for college sports, especially football.  

[NorthoftheBorder]

Apart from having a "Phil Knight" type of billionaire LU alum and donor who can buy the success in spite of the leadership shortcomings from an athletic standpoint, we just will not get there.  I am not saying that LU does not have overall good "University" level leadership, I think they do.  But that does not make them great at visionary athletic leadership.  I think all prior and present leaders have looked at only what LU does not have that prevents them from moving up in Athletics, and not look at what it would take to move up, the plan how to get there, and then sell that vision and move forward with the execution.

 

For now, I am hopeful that Rossomando will, through great coaching, exceed what everyone expects can happen in football, and see where that takes us in the short term, and maybe the long term.  

[NorthoftheBorder]

One qualifier to my previous post, had Jimmy Simmons been younger when he took over as President with a longer runway of time, we all may be having a different conversation. He did have the type of leadership qualities that it takes to grow an athletic program. 

[coachacola]

I think we're beating a dead horse when talking about LU going to the Sun Belt or moving up to FBS.  They keep taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

But the way things are moving it's going to be the SEC and B10 dominating and everyone else.  There probably won't be much difference between a top tier FCS team and a regular FBS team.

[TexGator]

1 hour ago, coachacola said:

I think we're beating a dead horse when talking about LU going to the Sun Belt or moving up to FBS.  They keep taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

But the way things are moving it's going to be the SEC and B10 dominating and everyone else.  There probably won't be much difference between a top tier FCS team and a regular FBS team.

Unless the rules for qualifying for a bowl change, where all wins (incl. all FCS games) count, there's still value in moving up for schools.
But you have to accept that you're unlikely to pull the "App State" (or NIU) and get an actual win over a P4 school in their house.
That win tonight over a ranked non-conference team is helpful.

Not saying I'm 100% on the "move up" bandwagon- just that the discussion can be had and that O'Malley is both well-respected and well-known throughout the NCAA, including in the G6 conferences. The Sun Belt and CUSA are going to start searching for new dance partners before the music stops. 

[NorthoftheBorder]

I am for LU moving up, however, I do not think our leadership will be able to capitalize on the possible success that Rossomando looks like he may deliver, even with a 9-3 or 10-2 year and a possible SLC Championship and making the FCS playoffs.  You have to have a vision, which becomes a plan, and the ability to sell that to people who have money.  Money people will not invest their money unless they believe the plan has a realistic chance to succeed.  They will not get a monetary return on their investment in LU athletics, but they do want "bragging rights" on a successful investment in elevating a program to new heights.  They do not want to be at a "high wealth" social to have their "peers" chide them for investing in a "bust". They will only invest in something they believe can really succeed.  It is the nature of humans, and the failure to realize this keeps LU at a lower level.  

[TexGator]

6 hours ago, NorthoftheBorder said:

I am for LU moving up, however, I do not think our leadership will be able to capitalize on the possible success that Rossomando looks like he may deliver, even with a 9-3 or 10-2 year and a possible SLC Championship and making the FCS playoffs.  You have to have a vision, which becomes a plan, and the ability to sell that to people who have money.  Money people will not invest their money unless they believe the plan has a realistic chance to succeed.  They will not get a monetary return on their investment in LU athletics, but they do want "bragging rights" on a successful investment in elevating a program to new heights.  They do not want to be at a "high wealth" social to have their "peers" chide them for investing in a "bust". They will only invest in something they believe can really succeed.  It is the nature of humans, and the failure to realize this keeps LU at a lower level.  

I don't have a true feel on President Taylor, but I do have a feel for O'Malley- he's a builder. I feel like he's a conference commissioner or university president in 5 years. 

You are spot-on right that bigwigs love bragging rights. There are some big checks that people will need to write, and Lamar has corporations and people who can write those checks. A move to FBS would definitely require a tiered approach where you don't shake every tree for $1M but does require a few trees that can bear that fruit.

Just saw the plan to upgrade Bowers Stadium. I haven't been there in a while, but it's not an utter dump so, if their price tag is $60M, ours is probably close to that. The biggest issue is the logistical space with how tight the quarters are being bounded on 3 sides by a refinery, a highway, and an arena.

But, the real impetus for SHSU moving up was a pair of coaches (Fritz and Keeler) that have gone a combined 120-39 before making the announcement of the move. Lamar has had 2 winning seasons since 1979. 

[coachacola]

I looked up the plans for the $60 mil Bowers upgrade and it's mainly for the press box and some luxury boxes or something.  Looks like it doesn't include much in the way of extra seating.

 I think it would be very feasible to expand LU's stadium to 25K with lots of luxury boxes and expanded press box.  Does anyone have an extra $100 million or so laying around to make it happen?

[TexGator]

9 hours ago, coachacola said:

I looked up the plans for the $60 mil Bowers upgrade and it's mainly for the press box and some luxury boxes or something.  Looks like it doesn't include much in the way of extra seating.

 I think it would be very feasible to expand LU's stadium to 25K with lots of luxury boxes and expanded press box.  Does anyone have an extra $100 million or so laying around to make it happen?

Doesn't look like it's ANY extra seating. $60M for a press box, concession stands, and some awnings is a BIG price tag. 
... and Bowers, according to TexasBob's Stadium List, has a smaller seating capacity.
They have a LOT more space to expand it- wonder why they're not even expanding seating to the goal lines.

And, no, I don't have $100M.

[Pecker]

Well, for now, I’m perfectly fine with where we are as far as in the SLC.  Until we prove that we can win consistently and draw more fans, we should stay put.  What Lamar REALLY needs will never happen:

1) Much stricter enrollment requirements to attract overall better quality students. (Look at our dropout rate.  We’ve almost become “if you can breathe we will take your money” for enrollment.) 

2) Buy up as much of the surrounding property as possible and convert it to  “college student friendly” investment.  Like some fraternity/sorority houses.  Some restaurants, sports grill, dance hall, something, idk what. Nice, college student only apartments/condos.  

3). Plow down Provost Umphrey and rebuild it somewhere around there where it’s not sitting on top of a refinery.  (I have nothing against refineries but, especially in this tree hugging age we live in, it’s not the best “look”.) 

4) Require freshman to live on campus (except for locals who want to live at home for financial reasons.) 
 

5) A LOT more scholarship money to attract high performing students.  

[TexGator]

On 9/17/2024 at 11:33 PM, Pecker said:

Well, for now, I’m perfectly fine with where we are as far as in the SLC.  Until we prove that we can win consistently and draw more fans, we should stay put.  What Lamar REALLY needs will never happen:

1) Much stricter enrollment requirements to attract overall better quality students. (Look at our dropout rate.  We’ve almost become “if you can breathe we will take your money” for enrollment.) 

2) Buy up as much of the surrounding property as possible and convert it to  “college student friendly” investment.  Like some fraternity/sorority houses.  Some restaurants, sports grill, dance hall, something, idk what. Nice, college student only apartments/condos.  

3). Plow down Provost Umphrey and rebuild it somewhere around there where it’s not sitting on top of a refinery.  (I have nothing against refineries but, especially in this tree hugging age we live in, it’s not the best “look”.) 

4) Require freshman to live on campus (except for locals who want to live at home for financial reasons.) 
 

5) A LOT more scholarship money to attract high performing students.  

Related to your points:
1) While Lamar is seen as "take anyone," they actually are decently selective, and the dropouts are people who couldn't hack it, or life got in the way. 

2) If the university is buying frat/sorority houses, what's the guarantee the chapters are going to buy them off the university? Colleges usually don't own Greek Organization housing- the chapter does and they decide who can live here. Also, what Greek societies don't have a house and want one? Housing is pretty affordable around the LU campus.

3) So, where are you wanting the school to build a new stadium? I'll tell you that I am closer to "tree hugger" than "drill baby, drill" and I think it makes a nice and unique backdrop for the university, given how Lamar grew up with the evolution of the petrochem industry. 

4) I'd be all for having freshmen live on campus, but they'd need to fundraise to have more money for students to be able to afford it. Lamar doesn't have a glut of housing for those additional students to live on campus so you're talking about housing for hundreds more students to make it logistically feasible. 

5) Scholarship money, in general, is needed. Too many schools are creating programs to help lower-income students for Lamar to not step up and do the same. If providing more opportunities for current students is the roadblock in the way of becoming, for example, a Sun Belt school again, the focus needs to be on building up what already there before expanding the offerings on the field, so to speak.

[NorthoftheBorder]

45 minutes ago, TexGator said:

3) So, where are you wanting the school to build a new stadium? I'll tell you that I am closer to "tree hugger" than "drill baby, drill" and I think it makes a nice and unique backdrop for the university, given how Lamar grew up with the evolution of the petrochem industry. 

If we ever got to the point of significantly increasing Provost Umphrey seating capacity, I would be in favor of tearing down the Montagne (I know it has a new name) and build a new basketball arena somewhere else contiguous to the campus.  If we did that, we could make it a horseshoe with double decks and luxury boxes around the stadium between the upper and lower decks and probably get to a 60k+ seating capacity.  I know this is a pipe dream, but that is what I would do.  

[TexGator]

5 hours ago, NorthoftheBorder said:

If we ever got to the point of significantly increasing Provost Umphrey seating capacity, I would be in favor of tearing down the Montagne (I know it has a new name) and build a new basketball arena somewhere else contiguous to the campus.  If we did that, we could make it a horseshoe with double decks and luxury boxes around the stadium between the upper and lower decks and probably get to a 60k+ seating capacity.  I know this is a pipe dream, but that is what I would do.  

That would be the more cost-efficient alternative... to build a new arena elsewhere (maybe down next to The Beck) and then push the seating around. Definitely would be interesting to have some crazy students each end zone making life hell for teams when there's that key goal-to-go situation.

But the first thing is to build the momentum that is starting. I remember how exciting it was back in '91 when the WBB team was hot and got to host a tournament game ("Thank you, Sesame Street Live!"). If basketball or football had postseason play in front of them, the community would show up.

[geezer]

14 hours ago, TexGator said:

That would be the more cost-efficient alternative... to build a new arena elsewhere (maybe down next to The Beck) and then push the seating around. Definitely would be interesting to have some crazy students each end zone making life hell for teams when there's that key goal-to-go situation.

But the first thing is to build the momentum that is starting. I remember how exciting it was back in '91 when the WBB team was hot and got to host a tournament game ("Thank you, Sesame Street Live!"). If basketball or football had postseason play in front of them, the community would show up.

Pure seating capacity Lamar doesn't need much if any to meet FBS standards.  Lamar would pretty much need to sell out for what is supposed to be the attendance standard.  Every time I think about what it would really take, I think how short sighted the Lamar administration has been over the years.  They could have attached the Dauphin Athletic Complex to the south side of the Montagne which then would have left the south end open to create a horseshoe down the road and also made the complex easily accessed by both football and basketball for meeting rooms and weight rooms.  But since they didn't really think about what might be needed to get to FBS when they built it expanding seating now is a lot harder and a lot more expensive. 

[puddin tane]

-i actually think our facilities are some of the best in fcs, and nicer than alot of fbs.
 

-The last thing we need is a 60k stadium!  Cmon! Attendance is down across the USA, many schools are going smaller.  Too many streaming games you can watch from your couch.  Hell. I saw a Beaumont enterprise article on how you can stream the LU game!  How bout an article on how to get your ass to the stadium?  
 

-if ya ever wanted a new stadium (i like ours, btw…) you could look over by the old driving range, nuthin happens over there anymore besides the occasional cricket game.

-crazy students in the end zones? Cant get em to come now..they are still wearing their high school letter jackets and reliving mid county madness.

-and, if you can sign a check, you can get into LU.

 

-you really wanna “fix” lamar….you go back in time, put lamar on the river and the cemeteries by the refineries.

 

peck em

[coachacola]

When LU brought back football in 2010 I played around with Photoshop and mocked up an expanded stadium with a seating capacity around 25K.  I think this could be done with the limited space they have.  Just add some nice press boxes and maybe some luxury boxes and they'll be ready for FBS.

[NorthoftheBorder]

My 60k seating is pure pipe dream.  We are long past the ability to get there, unless we have an alum no one knows about with Elon Musk type wealth and a willingness to pour tons of $$$ into the program.  Coach's mockup above is much more realistic, if Rossomando can get us where we win a FCS Natty or two and have a program that can compete heads up with the best G5 teams and the opportunity to beat teams like Vandy, MIss State, Auburn or several of the Big 12 schools.  If we get there, I will be happy.

 

I would like to have a team that could go into Kyle field and play the Aggies and keep the margin to a 10 point or less margin game. Scare the hell out of em!

Coach, keep that mock up.  We may want to revisit that in the future.  

[TexGator]

3 hours ago, geezer said:

Pure seating capacity Lamar doesn't need much if any to meet FBS standards.  Lamar would pretty much need to sell out for what is supposed to be the attendance standard.  Every time I think about what it would really take, I think how short sighted the Lamar administration has been over the years.  They could have attached the Dauphin Athletic Complex to the south side of the Montagne which then would have left the south end open to create a horseshoe down the road and also made the complex easily accessed by both football and basketball for meeting rooms and weight rooms.  But since they didn't really think about what might be needed to get to FBS when they built it expanding seating now is a lot harder and a lot more expensive. 

The biggest issue is that O'Malley is the first AD who has the alumni feeling like he has vision for 10+ years down the road, even if he's plucked up by another school before then (related to that- I'm really glad UH didn't steal him).
Every other AD of the last 30 years always felt like they weren't a "the buck stops here" person- every success was for their resume and every misstep was someone else's fault.
The move FROM the Sun Belt a quarter-century ago was the right move as they were struggling in a lot of ways. The influx of money from their online M.Ed. program (if you saw those 2009-2012 School of Education graduations, you know just how lucrative those were, and well-timed for the return of football) brought the campus back to life.
The WAC Conference move would have worked if O'Malley had been shepherding the department when it happened. Instead, it was a lot of hollow promises of making the WAC an FBS conference, which never happened and resulted in NMSU and SHSU moving into C-USA and a world of uncertainty for those schools.

Related to coach's post- 25K by bowling and adding seats on the East side of the stadium would make the stadium a destination for a lot of events. Having someone connect like JOM could actually benefit LU by potentially making it the location for the D2 or D3 Championship Game for a decade. Neither has a long-term home right now (and D2 is literally playing in a HS stadium- a nice HS stadium in McKinney ISD Stadium, but a HS stadium none the less).

Having some events that get eyeballs on the stadium would help with sponsorships that would defray the cost of a renovation.

[Pecker]

Uggh, the WAC conference was a HORRIBLE idea and would never have worked.  Well, maybe if we hired Nick Saban but that’s about the only way. 
 

We can’t even consistently win/draw more than 6k fans now and we start with the FBS nonsense?   There’s a saying “bloom where you are planted.  Maybe we should try to bloom first. 

[TexGator]

5 minutes ago, Pecker said:

Uggh, the WAC conference was a HORRIBLE idea and would never have worked.  Well, maybe if we hired Nick Saban but that’s about the only way. 
 

We can’t even consistently win/draw more than 6k fans now and we start with the FBS nonsense?   There’s a saying “bloom where you are planted.  Maybe we should try to bloom first. 

The WAC Conference WOULD HAVE BEEN a great idea, if the promises of turning it into an FBS conference hadn't been hollow (doubling those non-conference football game paychecks would have been helpful).

Born and the other ADs should have done more work on getting assurances that plan was legitimate before joining- then again, that might have been how they got out so easily... that the membership agreement had some "out" clauses that O'Malley was able to exploit the moment he arrived on campus.

I am a fan of blooming where we're planted but also paying attention to the way the trade winds are blowing. Joining a conference like the Sun Belt (where we still have relationships and there's no empty promises) is something we should listen to... but not something we'd go into "all willy nilly"- the biggest difference a move to the Sun Belt, as an example, is that it automatically brings more revenue through being a multiple-bid league in several sports, conference money for bowls, and bigger paychecks (suddenly, the 12 FBS schools in Texas and those in Louisiana are all having to make bigger financial promises.

A paycheck game even going from $300K to $500K is enough to fund all the scholarships for an entire Olympic sport (other than baseball/softball)... from 1 game. Doesn't take the success that JMU is having in their reclassification to make it lucrative... but it isn't something we should do just to do... or even just for the money because we know the financials of CFB are going to change soon (even if we've been saying that for a decade and it hasn't happened yet)

[Pecker]

9 hours ago, coachacola said:

If things don't change they will crash and burn in conference games.

 

On 9/19/2024 at 3:00 PM, TexGator said:

Related to your points:
1) While Lamar is seen as "take anyone," they actually are decently selective, and the dropouts are people who couldn't hack it, or life got in the way. 

2) If the university is buying frat/sorority houses, what's the guarantee the chapters are going to buy them off the university? Colleges usually don't own Greek Organization housing- the chapter does and they decide who can live here. Also, what Greek societies don't have a house and want one? Housing is pretty affordable around the LU campus.

3) So, where are you wanting the school to build a new stadium? I'll tell you that I am closer to "tree hugger" than "drill baby, drill" and I think it makes a nice and unique backdrop for the university, given how Lamar grew up with the evolution of the petrochem industry. 

4) I'd be all for having freshmen live on campus, but they'd need to fundraise to have more money for students to be able to afford it. Lamar doesn't have a glut of housing for those additional students to live on campus so you're talking about housing for hundreds more students to make it logistically feasible. 

5) Scholarship money, in general, is needed. Too many schools are creating programs to help lower-income students for Lamar to not step up and do the same. If providing more opportunities for current students is the roadblock in the way of becoming, for example, a Sun Belt school again, the focus needs to be on building up what already there before expanding the offerings on the field, so to speak.

1). I guess we have a vastly different view of what being selective is.  I know LU graduation rates are low and I know student involvement at sporting events is virtually non-existent.  And I do know the entrance requirements are very low. 
 

2). The university used to own 3 or 4 frat houses, and one of the firms was used as housing for sororities.  They students/member just paid rent like any other campus housing.  However, McLaughlin and Franklin (1980’s administration) hated Greek/social organizations and essentially ran them off campus.

Driving range area?  Somewhere else off of Cardinal drive?  Buy off other property owners around campus?

 

 

[coachacola]

The state of Texas had a website that tracked graduation rates for all universities around the state and LU was always near the bottom.  I wish LU would concentrate on STEM degrees and not just offer crappy easy degrees just for enrollment numbers, but that's probably not where the money's at.

Lamar has slowly been buying property around the campus.  It does need a buffer zone around the neighborhood.  Lots of universities are located in crappy neighborhoods so although a negative it can work.

 I would add a parking garage and lots of trees next to the basketball arena so help hide the refineries.  I think LU was built on land that was originally owned by an oil company and it was a tank farm.  Like the whole area, you can't separate LU from the petroleum industry.

[geezer]

At some point I think you're going to see a conference including the Pac12 disappear not add FCS schools.  The prestige of the PAC-12 name may save it as they poach the best from the rest of the conferences.  The Sun Belt currently has fourteen members. The Mountain West after the initial poaching is down to eight members.  The American has fourteen members. C-USA has ten members, the Mid-American has twelve, The Pac-12 probably needs to get to ten members to be comfortable, but needs two to survive, who are the most likely targets?  The Pac-12 may also be thinking that one or two teams might decide to return to get them to ten or twelve but that will be a big pill for the returning teams to swallow.  So, who do they go after?